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RE: Stolen Design? You Decide.
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RE: Stolen Design? You Decide. - 10/3/2006 1:46:51 PM
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regardingdesign
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Joined: 10/3/2006
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Maria, great points. I just want to propose a question to all the print designers. If you had done an illustration (i.e. a wine bottle), would you not be a little upset if another designer then started claiming it as theirs, selling, and profiting from your *exact* illustration, only rotating it about 15 degrees? Same colors, nothing had changed but a bit of rotation. Can you honestly say that you would be fine with that?
Now, I know most of the discussion has been regarding the layout of the page, and to me, that is also an obvious rip. If you view the sites live right now, they might not look the same (thanks to the persistence of the web design community), but they were originally virtually identical. But put that aside right now, and let me know about my question above.
The use of the wine bottles did happen by the way and was mentioned in the article, in case you didn't read the whole thing. Here's another link about the illustrations/icons.
http://www.hivelogic.com/articles/2006/09/30/look_familiar
How can you deny that is not a rip? And if they would rip something like that, what would stop them from ripping the Joyent layout as well?
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RE: Stolen Design? You Decide. - 10/3/2006 2:04:30 PM
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Dadzarro
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Oh, I see!
I did not read the whole article, and missed the bottle illustration, which does pretty much conclusively link the two sites. Throw in the apology, and the case is closed.
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RE: Stolen Design? You Decide. - 10/3/2006 4:25:36 PM
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vertigo25
Posts: 78
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I'm new here, and have to admit that my first motivation for signing up was to comment on this issue (but I plan on sticking around because it looks like you have a pretty good thing going here). You see, Greg Storey disagreed with me, blocked me from commenting, and called me a "moron" for questioning his professionalism with regards to posting such things on his site.
It's Greg's site, and he's certainly allowed to silence dissint any way he see's fit, but I believe the real issue here is whether or not it's our duty as designers to contact another designer's clients if we believe the work they have been sold is a mere plagiarism?
Mr. Storey is friends with the designers in question, and indeed, I can understand his loyalty, but would it not be more professional to contact them about the "rip" and leave it in their hands (and offer any help you can give)? I further have to question the motivation behind his post given certain circumstances. He not only contacted the client, but pitched a re-design. When he was told by the client that they did not feel the design was illegally acquired, he chose to publicly call them out on their ethics.
This is far from the first time he's posted about design rip-offs. And, actually, I have generally agreed with him that they are altered copies that infringe on the rights of the original designers' work. I also agree that this method of design is wrong by any standard (however, I also believe it is very possible to have extremely similar designs by mere coincidence (and that a certain level of "inspiration" is certainly allowed)).
My main question is: Is this the way to handle it?
We have a legal system set up to handle issues such as this. Should self-appointed vigilantes become the standard? There's been several cases where items like this have appeared on blogs or forums and the client and accused plagiarizer have been harassed by hordes of well-meaning but ill-tempered readers. I can't help but feel that, eventually, someone will be falsely accused and suffer great professional damage due to these tactics.
I'd really like to know everyone's thoughts on this. Is it merely a case of "They get what they deserve" or should we hold ourselves to a higher standard of handling these things?
< Message edited by vertigo25 -- 10/3/2006 4:30:21 PM >
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RE: Stolen Design? You Decide. - 10/3/2006 4:29:25 PM
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SAW
Posts: 3465
Joined: 1/16/2006
From: Ten-Uh-See!
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Interesting points, vertigo. Welcome to the forum.
If it is true that Airbag edits and posts select comments, than it is truly interesting that many on there are flaming the Winery owner for doing the same.
Don't know for sure...just saying.
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RE: Stolen Design? You Decide. - 10/3/2006 4:43:53 PM
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Mary
Posts: 3117
Joined: 1/17/2006
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OK, i've gone back and read the entire article and seen the sites side by side along with the wine bottles and NOW, I see the rip off.
Honestly, that guy's article is just too long & drawn out for me. I wish he's just presented the evidence up front then went into his thoughts/stories/explainations. Ugh.
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RE: Stolen Design? You Decide. - 10/3/2006 4:54:23 PM
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Maria
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Welcome, vertigo...good comments.
Yeah, maybe in the best of possible worlds, he should have let the original designers or companies contact the owner. But, in my opinion, anytime someone steals another designers work and gets away with it, it is a blow to our industry. So as a friend to the ones whose work was ripped, and also as a designer, maybe he felt like he had a right to make an inquiry and to stir up a hornet's nest about something that was unethical.
I agree also that sometimes issues brought to the public eye in blogs (or even Digg & other community sites) can rapidly spiral out of control, with misinformation or harassment, etc. But--if Greg hadn't done his detective work, contacted the winery owner, published this in a blog, etc. the issue might have just been dropped like thousands of other copying/stealing incidents with designers. The bad press, outrage, emails, etc. have the effect hopefully of doing what the plagarists' consciences failed to do, which is make them to the right thing.
I think of this similarly to the case with the young Harvard author who got the book deal, and then a college newspaper (was it Harvard?) uncovered that she had outright borrowed both short and long passages from another teen novel. Yeah, the college newspaper really had no right to complain (they weren't the copyright owner, publisher, etc.). But there is a strong tradition in American media of muckraking, so maybe Airbag blogging about the design theft fits in the category of investigative journalism. And I'm all for investigative journalism...Watergate, the Jungle (meatpacking industry), the recent story about Rep. Foley...these are all things that came to light because someone decided to do some probing and advocating for something that wasn't right.
As for Mr. Storey offering to help them with a redesign, that was in poor taste. But I am going to believe his motivation that he stated: he felt bad for the winery owner having spent money on a copycat site...and he was offering discount services to amend/make some changes to the site, since winery owner may not have any more money to spend on a new site. Was he being altruistic or avaricious? I don't know...
I do know the offending designer apologized. He's a good enough designer he shouldn't have needed to depend on someone else's creativity. If the designers who were ripped are satisfied with his apology, all's well that ends well. I hope along with his apology he does the right thing and makes revisions to the site so it is original work. When you recognize you did something wrong, it doesn't mean much if you don't do something about it.
I do think this is a very valid discussion for the design community. Von Glitschka is a designer who comments here a lot, and his work has been ripped off internationally. BTW, here's another example of a website rip off, not even an "inspired" borrowing but a total stealing of someone's very hard work. Such a shame it's a design company who should know better.
Original City Church website: http://www.thecity.org/
Design Company Rip Off: http://www.tesseractdesigns.com/
< Message edited by Maria -- 10/3/2006 4:55:30 PM >
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RE: Stolen Design? You Decide. - 10/4/2006 1:15:51 AM
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WabbingtonDesign
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Ouch! You couldn't deny that one even if you were blind...ok maybe you could but you know what I mean. Perhaps they used the same Publisher template? Never used it but it could be a possiblity. I mean, they sell thousands of copies...
But I think they totally rip this one.
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RE: Stolen Design? You Decide. - 10/4/2006 7:04:24 AM
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ips_ips
Posts: 216
Joined: 9/28/2006
From: Europe
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May I add my $.02 : we photographer got the same issue. Some work is copied (f.e. by low ballers lacking creativity) or simply stolen. Sometimes the stolen work is little changed and then they claim to have created it.
In my experience, this happens a lot due to a lack of knowledge. Lots of people (also pro photographers) don't know what exactly INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY is and copyright means. Moreover and very important, they don't know how they damage their own business and the creative industry with this.
Therefore, I think it is VERY important that this issues are discussed on Forums and Blogs. In my opinion it's the only way to better the situation, which seems to going worth now that technology happen to get easier and easier.
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RE: Stolen Design? You Decide. - 10/4/2006 6:45:07 PM
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vertigo25
Posts: 78
Joined: 10/3/2006
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I think that discussion about the topic is important, too, but I also think that people like Mr. Storey should be wary of living in glass houses. Up until yesterday this was the head of his Longboard section:
Google Image
Today it has changed.
I can only wonder if it is because the image of the Pineapple Girl was an original piece of art by pin-up artist Garry Palm.
I haven't heard back from Garry or his licensing company, but it's interesting that the image has suddenly changed, is it not?
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RE: Stolen Design? You Decide. - 10/5/2006 12:36:30 AM
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vertigo25
Posts: 78
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Not to flog a dead horse, but...
I ended up posting about this on my flickr account, and Greg Storey has responded.
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RE: Stolen Design? You Decide. - 10/5/2006 12:25:23 PM
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WabbingtonDesign
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Joined: 1/19/2006
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I wonder, why would the city.com use the same layout for the Church and their website? They put a lot of work into that site judging from the process. I would be highly P'Oed if someone ripped my site/logo/illustrations.
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that one is just wrong.
