Login  | |
|
|
Design students/professors: How do you critique? (Thanks Bryn!)
|
|
|
Design students/professors: How do you critique? (Thank... - 5/23/2007 2:05:43 PM
|
|
|
Fantômas
Posts: 8786
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline
|
Question for everyone: How extensive/thought filled are your critiques that are conducted in class? Two parts to this question:
1. How do you critique? Do you go with constructive criticism or destructive criticism? Do you critique thoroughly, or just a topical surface critqiue and let them figure it out?
2. How do the students crtiqiue each others work? Do they hold back or do you tell them to let it all out, good or bad?
THe reason why i ask this: In my classes, i've heard a lot of students unable to speak their mind. I hear a lot of "cool" "i like it" "i don't like it" all mixed in with the word "like" about 20 times in a sentence. The critiques are often lacking substance, and teh students don't back up their opinion. So for the last year, i've A. forbid them to use cool, i like it, i don't like it and B. I force them to speak more in class to get used to presenting and explaining their work in front of their fellow peers.
And a question for the students on this board: how do you critique? Do you put a lot of time and thought into your critique or just keep it simple? Do you ask questions (the designer whose work is being critiqued) about the work?
< Message edited by Fantômas -- 5/24/2007 1:23:47 PM >
_____________________________
CINQ Partners
Most sports take one ball. Skydiving takes two.
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/23/2007 3:24:04 PM
|
|
|
mayhemstudios
Posts: 5492
Joined: 1/16/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
|
I usually give a constructive criticism. Be somewhat detailed but don't be an ahole about it. I let them know what works and what doesen't. Suggestions to make it make it better or move in another direction.
_____________________________
Calvin Lee | Pimpin' Ain't Easy!
[Mayhem Studios] | [M+S Blog] | [Twitter]
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/23/2007 4:43:47 PM
|
|
|
M
Posts: 9348
Status: offline
|
i am constructive with a matter-of-fact non-personal destructive thrown in. i don't find poetic pats on the back to be of value in learning or moving forward with better solutions conceptually and visually.
M
and yes i do get detailed
< Message edited by M -- 5/23/2007 4:44:54 PM >
_____________________________
TIBET EARTH QUAKE RELIEF https://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/6063/shop/custom.jsp?donate_page_KEY=3457
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/23/2007 4:58:03 PM
|
|
|
M
Posts: 9348
Status: offline
|
or making a joke to break the ice and point something out.....i've said in the past *you can drive a mack truck through those rivers!* then i go into why not every block of copy is a good candidate for justifying
M
_____________________________
TIBET EARTH QUAKE RELIEF https://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/6063/shop/custom.jsp?donate_page_KEY=3457
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/23/2007 5:15:19 PM
|
|
|
herox
Posts: 341
Status: offline
|
I'm a student. I try not to hold back without being a punk...although I think some people will still see it as being a jerk no matter what because you're pointing out all the reasons why it doesn't work. So I give things I like about it and things I think need work. I think I'm an exception though, I've been working as a designer for 10 years (or there's abouts, the jury is still out on how good I am) and went back to school to get the degree. So the critiques I've received from the clients have been way more brutal than anyone has ever dished out in school. Thus what I think is fair and helpful someone else might think is mean.
I like details of whats not working. I have a lots of people in my classes say all positive remarks. Those drive me nuts. I think you're doing right by telling your class explain what's going on. Also when they say "it looks professional", never helps anyone.
I've had professors who are just ruthless, they're trying to be a jerk to motivate you to be better...but I think that's a poor way of doing it. All it does it make me hate the professor. Because he's a jerk. There's ways to explain what's wrong with it without being condesending or arrogant.
Hope that helps.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/23/2007 5:20:47 PM
|
|
|
Peter
Posts: 2629
Status: offline
|
If you are the instructor you need to take that position and look down on the student the way a parent talks to a child. Understanding without being discouraging.
If you are a peer, you can give a more sideswipe crit and tell it like it is. If it's good, you get praise and a pat on the back, if it's bad feel free to say it sucks and why. Then suggest improvements.
_____________________________
All I did was hold the bread...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/23/2007 6:17:01 PM
|
|
|
david the intern
Posts: 101
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline
|
Last semester my teacher told me "This is going to be an awesome piece once it's designed well". Eventually, said piece was designed well.
quote:
ORIGINAL: M
*you can drive a mack truck through those rivers!*
M
Your buddy Joe says that too, then he proceeds to draw a truck through the rivers.
– d
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/23/2007 6:20:11 PM
|
|
|
M
Posts: 9348
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: david the intern
Last semester my teacher told me "This is going to be an awesome piece once it's designed well". Eventually, said piece was designed well.
quote:
ORIGINAL: M
*you can drive a mack truck through those rivers!*
M
Your buddy Joe says that too, then he proceeds to draw a truck through the rivers.
– d
LOL!...that's where i got it from, Joe...love that guy.
M
_____________________________
TIBET EARTH QUAKE RELIEF https://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/6063/shop/custom.jsp?donate_page_KEY=3457
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/23/2007 6:52:33 PM
|
|
|
lauren3g
Posts: 9046
Joined: 1/16/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
|
1. I give constructive criticism although I am quite direct. I make sure I talk about what works as well as what doesn't and why. Finally I make sure I give some suggestions to move forward.
2. Before I give my input I let my students talk 1st. If they don't say anything then I ask questions about the work to get them to make appropriate comments. Some students are honest and direct some are a bit shy. I have yet to have a student that is out and out nasty.
Yes my critique sessions can be long when both the students and I give input... The trick is to present information that is useful to everyone and give a break in the middle of the session.
Your students need to learn the language to critique. It's not "cool" or "I like it"... it's all about what's working and why. Make them use the formula "This is (or isn't) working because.... I also stop my students when they start talking about the software issues. Software issues are NOT part of my crits. We talk about those issues afterwards. At the end of this semester I had several students mimicing me "Blue is not a concept." Yes I push concept.
I just got a note from one of my students today. She stated I was her favorite instructor this semester but in many ways her toughest.... This is what helped her improve.
It can be tough balancing tough with constructive but it can be done! Good students will always excel if you push them.
_____________________________
LAUREN
GOOGLE
B E R G
----------
lauren3g.com
laurenBehance
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/23/2007 11:41:29 PM
|
|
|
peaches
Posts: 1725
Joined: 1/16/2006
From: Seattle
Status: offline
|
Looking back on school, there was a single critique that opened my eyes about a year into the program. That critique happened to be harsh, vicious, and even included a few personal attacks. I wanted to cry, I really wanted to run, I also wanted to defend my work (not the greatest as I was a 1st year) but I didn't defend my work I didn't think I should disagree with a my teacher. I felt like she handpicked me to make me feel like the special idiot. It opened my eyes in several ways, but most of all how to defend my work and push back with the same rational that I used when designing the piece. I didn't see much of the same from my peers though, I guess they were perfect and didn't need the lesson? They just stood there and took it. However, I don't think I could ever give the same critique to someone like the infamous one I got back in the day, more encouraging.
_____________________________
-Megs
website | twitter | blog | dribbble
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/24/2007 12:39:24 AM
|
|
|
Ivonciuca
Posts: 3
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
|
I think critiquing other people's work is really tough. It gets worse when you are the one receiving it. I always thought I was really good at what I did, graphic design was my passion and then an art director came in and told me in my review that I wasn't creative enough, that I was still in a box (in my second review), that I needed a lot of direction from her...and that in one year I only improved a little. I've been designing for 10 years, and she's the first one to tell me how bad I am. I don't believe that's true, and my works talks by itself... but my passion for design is in the dumps, It's been hard to find another job because I haven't seen anything I care for, I don't feel creative anymore...and going to work everyday is painful. I've been very depressed...If she thought that being cruel was going to help me, it didn't, now I DO feel in a box, because I can't get motivated. Please don't crush your students passion. I think you can be critical of their work in a way that can help them grow...there's other ways to just shut people down...and that's what my art director has done to me.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/24/2007 2:52:41 AM
|
|
|
dbdesign
Posts: 1327
Status: offline
|
I fry people during critiques.......and I expect the same in return. It's not personal, it's business. Communication design is not about personal expression, it's calculated. You are never going to get better and you are never going to learn that graphic design is not about personal interests in art without harsh criticism. It's business, nothing personal. If you can't take the heat then you are missing the point and you should consider changing your major to painting.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/24/2007 6:40:43 AM
|
|
|
lauren3g
Posts: 9046
Joined: 1/16/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ivonciuca
.... I always thought I was really good at what I did, graphic design was my passion and then an art director came in and told me in my review that I wasn't creative enough, that I was still in a box (in my second review), that I needed a lot of direction from her...and that in one year I only improved a little. I've been designing for 10 years, and she's the first one to tell me how bad I am....
10 years and you haven't developed a back bone? 10 years and you don't have confidence in your work. Your problem isn't that you are not creative enough. It sounds to me you work for a meglamanic who needs to build thier own ego by putting you down. Only HER ideas count. Did she give you any recommendations on how to improve?
Of course I haven't seen your work but I find it hard to believe after 10 years you need all this direction from HER.
_____________________________
LAUREN
GOOGLE
B E R G
----------
lauren3g.com
laurenBehance
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/24/2007 8:13:29 AM
|
|
|
Pad Thai
Posts: 7652
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
|
I was 44 when I started school and 49 when I rec'd my degree. My teachers were younger than me, the same age, and a decade older than me. I had a few great teachers who could do constructive crits that made students WANT to do better and one who would throw work on the floor and say it was sh!t, you'd be fired for it at an agency.
But we weren't working for an agency, we were in school to learn a few things, and while I respected her One Shows and Cleo's, I didn't think she was a very good teacher. A few kids quit when she threw their work off her desk, which, I'm sorry, is a pretty sh!tty thing to do to an 18- or 20-yr-old kid who has always wanted a career in art. I wonder what kind of work they're doing now, that they hate? She was good at taking a talented student and art directing their work, but she didn't know how to instruct and inspire.
On the other hand, I had instructors who were born to teach, knew how to be hard on students without demoralizing them, and managed to make everyone want to improve a piece, even if it went from bad to weak. If you know why something's not working, you've got a place to start from.
I was also lucky enough to have a teacher early on who made us use the "4 points" critique system, where you quantify and qualify what you see. I never had to enunciate the numbers again, but those points are still always in the back of my head when someone asks for my opinion on something.
And if you ask me, Ivonciuca, your art director isn't doing her job. Sounds like you work for someone who's too competitive with you, if she were a good boss, she'd mentor you. Kind of like that teacher - she can tell you you suck but can't be constructive about how to give her the kind of work she wants from you. Keep looking, there's a better job/boss out there. The bad thing about opportunity is it's blind, we have to knock first.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/24/2007 10:31:01 AM
|
|
|
jiant
Posts: 1489
Status: offline
|
wow alot of horror stories, and some good. I have background in two differnet schools of critique.
Art school was full of good critiqueing, very very helpful, and very thorough.
Design school, was at a smaller school, most of the critiqueing was on the surface, alot of the "i like it", even at the professors prodding, "well why do you like it." Most students would not be able to explain themselves.
I was always the "bad guy" in my design school critiques.
I am constructive, but I point out what is working and what i s not, mechanics, theory. I always critique the work, and never the person who it belongs too. I offer ideas on what I would have done differently, and explain why. Even when I was being constructive, and directing the criticism towards the work, people still got upset.
Even as recently as my last job, the "art director", would get visibly upset when his work was critiqued. He took it personal, which is what too many designers do today. They where there emotions on their sleeve, and take criticism of the work theydo personally, even it is not ultimately your work.
I can see the artist who is designing an artitsitic piece that has alot of personal meaing to them getting upset at negative feedback, but when you are doing packaging design for someone elses product, and they don't like it. You know what I say, "tough titty said the Kitty, can't get no milk."
_____________________________
It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. - Nelson Mandela
--
Jiant on Flickr
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/24/2007 10:38:23 AM
|
|
|
chupacabra
Posts: 930
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline
|
I critique on two levels: Is the idea good? Is it executed well? I try to keep my personal preferences out of things because there are tons of different ways to solve a design problem and a ton of different ways to execute an idea. But if I see an element that weakens the execution I'll mention it or if I can think of a better way to execute or better concept I'll mention it. I also say when something is done well.
All negative critiques aren't very useful, a designer has to know where he/she is making progress and where he/she is are lagging. All negative crits turn out to be more about the critiquer, savoring the opportunity to show off his or her knowledge or superiority, a sad show of insecurity.
i think maybe students are reluctant to say anything of substance because they don't want to say something dumb or don't want to appear dorky and brainy. they also may simply not have the experience to know why something works or doesn't. they aren't yet able to separate out the elements and analyze them yet.
quote:
I fry people during critiques.......and I expect the same in return. It's not personal, it's business. Communication design is not about personal expression, it's calculated. You are never going to get better and you are never going to learn that graphic design is not about personal interests in art without harsh criticism. It's business, nothing personal. If you can't take the heat then you are missing the point and you should consider changing your major to painting.
yeah, maybe in theory but I don't think it's realistic to say you don't put your heart into your work or your personal aesthetic. There is beauty in what we do which is an emotional thing. It's not accounting.
I really disagree with this drill sergeant philosophy. Why be harsh? why be soft? Just be objective and leave the students' motivation up them.
_____________________________
Hell yeah, rock the back hair.
Just grow that sh*t like ya just don't care.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/24/2007 11:38:01 AM
|
|
|
Vonster
Posts: 2951
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
|
I never let the students formally critique anything. They already have too many opinions.
All my critiques for student work are on a one to one basis. On assignments I have them bring it up to me and then I critique it in progress as they work. Otherwise upon final review I provide a critique form and on that I talk through the strengths and weaknesses and offer suggestions specifically about the piece and then towards areas of their creative process I think they need to work on so that overall their work no matter what the assignment will strengthen.
I often will tape tracing paper over their assignment and call out stuff on their piece and explain it more or draw out an alternate way and explain that. I do inject humor into my reviews and sometimes sarcasm such as with a students art for a pattern illustration assignment where I said "Looks like an argyle sock pattern that a skull & bones member would wear to a midnight ritual." They seem to respond to critical information better if I cloak it in sarcasm and wit. LOL
So far it's worked pretty good.
_____________________________
http://www.Glitschka.com
http://www.FederalBureauofIllustration.com
http://www.IllustrationClass.com
http://www.Twitter.com/Vonster
Because Life is Too Short for Bad Art.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/24/2007 11:40:42 AM
|
|
|
megan
Posts: 7364
Joined: 1/17/2006
From: Idaho ---> NorCal
Status: offline
|
I was one of the few students who usually had something constructive to say about all my peers' work in crits. I had some great instructors and great critiques as well, but usually other students didn't say too much, just offered a few ideas here & there.
I think the key to a good crit is separating the work from the person who did it. It should not be a personal attack, because that only makes people defensive and unwilling to change. Constructive criticism and what does/doesn't work is helpful, but I think a lot of designers struggle with separating their work from themselves. We can't take critiques on our work too personally, this has been a hard thing for me to learn because usually I put a lot of myself and my ideals into my work.
_____________________________
my site | volksvegan | flickr | facebook | etsy
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/24/2007 5:10:54 PM
|
|
|
dbdesign
Posts: 1327
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: chupacabra
quote:
I fry people during critiques.......and I expect the same in return. It's not personal, it's business. Communication design is not about personal expression, it's calculated. You are never going to get better and you are never going to learn that graphic design is not about personal interests in art without harsh criticism. It's business, nothing personal. If you can't take the heat then you are missing the point and you should consider changing your major to painting.
yeah, maybe in theory but I don't think it's realistic to say you don't put your heart into your work or your personal aesthetic. There is beauty in what we do which is an emotional thing. It's not accounting.
I really disagree with this drill sergeant philosophy. Why be harsh? why be soft? Just be objective and leave the students' motivation up them.
I didn't mean to imply that being an a**hole is cool, like the lady that threw someones work on the floor. Thats definately uncalled for. I only meant to illustrate how important it is to be objective in school. This business is not for the weak of heart and students need to learn this. In addition to this, most young design students are snooty and extremely naive. They come in thinking they are "all that" and they have no perspective at all. They need to know that they have a lot of work to do and that this profession is not a walk in the park. My experience in design school was fairly brutal (texas state university). Our crits were heated, and the competition between the students was intense. But as you would expect, this raises the level of work tremendously. Texas state wins awards all the time, almost everytime (how, cmyk, dsvc, etc). Of course you should be constructive, but students are not going to get better by being coddled. I also didn't intend to imply that we are not creative people, of course we are. But our work does not always include our personal interests in art or politics or whatever.....it has to serve the project. We have to learn to let go of our ego and create work that will help the specific needs of a client.....not our personal needs as artists.
I have seen quite a few students quit after the first critique, and most of them were expecting everyone to praise their work and talk about how good it is. Students need perspective. Theres no need to be rude but you should get it all out on the table. I loved getting pounded during a crit. I would leave pissed at myself, not anyone else......and I would go home and get to work. I am insecure and never satisfied......but I always show up ready to play.
.
< Message edited by dbdesign -- 5/24/2007 5:22:12 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Past/Present design students/professors/educators: ... - 5/24/2007 6:31:01 PM
|
|
|
Fantômas
Posts: 8786
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline
|
Von,
I'm curious as to why you don't let them critique. I can understand that with lower level students that are just beginning to learn, but juniors/seniors would already have enough in-classroom experience to provide decent criticism. How does your typical (design) course progress? If you could give me an example....
_____________________________
CINQ Partners
Most sports take one ball. Skydiving takes two.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
Printable Version
