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   Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty business?"
Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty busines... - 2/2/2009 11:31:50 AM   
J Fisher LogoMotives


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OK, I'm REALLY annoyed today.

A couple weeks ago Cat Morley emailed me with a request from Forbes magazine for someone to discuss NO!SPEC and the crowdsourcing (spec work in disguise) of a certain company. I contacted the reporter and set up a phone interview time with him. I never heard from him at the appointed time. I emailed him the next morning. He said he'd been tied up at the appointment time and he'd call me immediately - and I never received a call. I also gave him the contact info for Sean Adams and Debbie Millman of AIGA as possible sources for the article. He said he appreciated the information as he had tried to call the AIGA office the day before. Debbie emailed the reporter to let him know she was available - and never heard from him. Just a bit rude.

From the tone of the article that appeared, I wonder if he really wanted our input at all - and the headline referring to graphic design as a "snooty business" certainly sets that tone.

< Message edited by J Fisher LogoMotives -- 2/2/2009 11:36:04 AM >


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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 11:43:10 AM   
kimburgerly

 

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Un-freakin'-believable.

I wonder how the "reporter" would feel about the same concept targeted toward writers and journalists.

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 11:46:47 AM   
seamas


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Oh no they di'int.

Getting dissed by a magazine targeting the investor class.
Ouch.

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 11:55:50 AM   
Aibrean


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CEO's are snooty...should we put them in a bucket and let them fight for running a company on pennies?

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 12:06:27 PM   
ginaidoru


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I'm hearing this a lot lately, and I'm pretty sick of it. I'm tired of being treated like creative cattle.

Oh, and can a gramma in Tennessee force a spot color and deal with a layout that uses foil? Does she know how to set up a mechanical for die cuts? Uh huh. A$$ holes.

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 12:19:29 PM   
thecat


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It's almost 1am and I'm STILL so wound up about this I could spit buffaloes.

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 12:46:27 PM   
M

 

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the point about the article was to promote crowdsprings....not give a balanced time to an issue. this business/service model exists already...there is nothing new here or unique here. it's no surprise that the reporter didn't follow up for the opposing view. unfortunately forbes has elevated visability to this practice.

the concept of "competition is good for the consumer" is flawed in this case. you should optimally have a group of actual professionals that have real skills, talent, knowledge to offer....their form of competition is "anyone who can submit something is good enough'

i also believe that whatever budget you have you should be able to get design services, even if it's small (and by that i do not mean the $50 budgets).

M

< Message edited by M -- 2/2/2009 12:51:14 PM >


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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 12:50:07 PM   
thecat


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You are forgetting a major point. Forbes contacted no-spec.com for an interview.

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 12:52:26 PM   
M

 

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sure they contacted no spec.....how important was their opinion to the forbes writer...not much. actions speaks louder than words many times. if you want to include something or someone you will.

M

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 12:53:48 PM   
Aibrean


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I just blogged about this...


Problems with contests for clients
  • If you are a client here are some other issues with this kind of method - you pay a company to find you artwork...isn't that essentially the same as hiring a firm with designers as employees?
  • You may have no idea who is submitting artwork.
  • You also may or may not have the luxury of knowing who designed your art so if there is a need for edits later you will have to hire someone to edit is since these sites don't cover edit contests later.
  • You don't have any kind of assurance that these designers aren't ripping the art from someone else.
  • You can't follow up for additional design work later that uses the same branding
  • They devalue the industry (how would you like your company selling stuff for really cheap just to get some kind of money...not even necessarily a profit?)
  • Amateur individuals (typically the people who accept contests are in need of money and are desperate and willing to steal other people's work for it. Also, you may find yourself with a bunch of designs that you don't like but you have to pick and pay for one).
  • Devalues you (you might have to pay to post your project but any Joe can submit a design).
  • Even if you get the file in the right format, the designer might have not formatted the actual artwork correctly (fonts that aren't converted to outlines, shapes that aren't merged, strokes not converted, etc).
  • If you are able to contact the designer later, you might have issues dealing with them. They may take forever to get in touch with you.
  • Your needs may not be 100% met.
Problems with contests for designers
  • You can't get all the detailed information you may need to be able to properly design for the client and typically contact is restrained so if you need to ask a question you can't.
  • The client can withdraw their contest and then if you've worked on it there was 0% chance of winning. You will never have a guarantee of payment.
  • You are devaluing yourself. You are willing to work for less and people will take advantage of that. Then you will have to cut brainstorming and quality design time to make up for it.
  • You might have to transfer copyright (sure it's all good and all if the company pays well but for $100? it's not worth it!). Some sites have copyrights transferred even if you DON'T win!
  • You have no way of knowing how your artwork will end up and whether or not those who get the artwork know how to use it and so you could be represented poorly.
  • Typically you won't have a contract so there is no way to protect yourself and your work.


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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 1:01:05 PM   
LucyDarling


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This is just ridiculous...

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 1:05:09 PM   
thecat


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Well, when I get an email with this in the subject line from the writer, Christopher Steiner...

FORBES MAGAZINE QUERY!!! - NoSpec/Crowdspring

Along with repeat emails... I took it that he was serious about talking with us.

There is more to the story, and it will out.

< Message edited by thecat -- 2/2/2009 1:10:58 PM >


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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 1:24:50 PM   
icu


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quote:

The beauty of our site is that it doesn't matter if you have a degree from the Rhode Island School of Design or if you're a grandma in Tennessee with a bunch of free time and Adobe


Says it all, really. People who want to work with grandma are welcome to do so. I wish them well.

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 3:17:33 PM   
EMH


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I skimmed this article earlier, and it still enrages me. What arrogant jerks these guys are. Don't pass off promotion as journalism, and if you're going to be a real journalist, you need both sides of the story.

This quote in particular, makes me see red:
Not that Kimbarovsky feels the need to justify CrowdSpring's competitive approach. "In the design world, the gatekeepers are fighting hard to keep the status quo," he says. "Now if you live in India or Peoria you can buy a computer and sophisticated software for a little bit of money and compete with big agencies--and they don't like that."
Ah yes, it's because we're all so horribly scared of people like the Toronto janitor who designed CS's logo (no joke - it's in there). I don't know how many ways or time we have to say it: It takes skill to do our jobs, and there's education behind it, formal or not. And you have no IDEA what why we're fighting, because YOU DIDN'T BOTHER TO INTERVIEW ANY OF US.

And then on top of that, they're talking about a designer who couldn't find work and how the site "saved" her. If she couldn't find work, I'm guessing there were three problems: 1) she lived somewhere with no market or too much competition, 2) she didn't have the skill in the first place, and/or 3) the economy sucks. Clearly, someone doesn't value their own work.

And on top of THAT, the bit at the end, right before the "well, the computer is a magic box that does all the work for you!" part? This:
Yet another challenge: dealing with pushback from the established design community, which has started a campaign called NoSpec, urging designers not to work in advance of getting paid. "You can't go to the new restaurant at the top of Trump Tower, ask for a taste and then decide if you're going to pay," says Catherine Brownlee, director of the Association of Professional Design Firms.
Yeah, we are pushing back. Because we have skills, we worked damned hard to acquire them, and we're professionals. We have every right to defend out work and our livelihoods. Whoever Catherine Brownlee is, she's correct, and that's exactly why NO!SPEC exists, but as far as I know, she's not associated with NO!SPEC. So the writer, in some ridiculous attempt to appear like a real journalist, threw two sentences in to make it look like they bothered to talk to both sides. How lame. I can't believe this guy can actually say with a straight face that we're nuts to urge designers to not work without getting paid - I wonder, did he write this article before he got paid? No other profession would put up with it, but because we're not "real" professionals in these guys' eyes, we should just give it away for free? Now that's a poor business model if ever I heard one, and you'd think a publication like Forbes would recognize that.

Cat, you had no chance on this one. Whoever wrote this clearly had no intention of showing designers in a good light, and would have twisted anything you gave him about NO!SPEC into whatever suited his purpose. This article is a total tongue bath to CS (who, I'm betting, probably advertise in Forbes or on Forbes' website). I believe there was a similar tongue bath a year or so ago in Enterpreneur (or was it Fast Company) about our old fav, LW.

This writer should be ashamed of himself and how willing to sell out he is, just to get a byline.

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/2/2009 3:31:36 PM   
kimburgerly

 

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Companies like Crowdspring and LogoWorks are no better than pimps working the sleazy side of town.

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/3/2009 10:13:30 AM   
bump!


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bump.

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/3/2009 10:50:34 AM   
jlittle


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Well, good for CrowdSpring for landing some free advertising. That's what that was, right?

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/3/2009 10:55:29 AM   
mrsbrak2


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I read this thread and the Forbes article first thing this morning and it was really getting to me. I was seriously thinking it's time for a career change.

But then as I started my usual client interactions this morning, I realized that this outsourcing business model would not work well for them (my clients). They won't know who the heck they'll end up with each time they need something. No continuity. It would be like having a new employee walk into their office to sit in the designer's chair every time they have a new project. I can see that I may lose the occasional one-time identity package for a small start-up company who has heard of CS or LW. But I'm counting on my consistent quality, fair pricing, and reliability to ensure that my more established clients will stay with me.

Still, I can't stop thinking about what iStock did to photographers.

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/3/2009 11:07:56 AM   
dougler


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Despite their protestations to the contrary, Crowdspring isn't even a 'crowd sourcing' model. It is a design contest site with a vehicle wrap. Not terribly surprising that Forbes didn't present both sides of the issue - on the surface these sites DO seem to make sense, at least how they're marketed (which is disingenuous at best) and Forbes is traditionally an anti-labor magazine that's been an advocate of off-shoring and other expense slashing tactics for years. Getting a workforce to work for NOTHING would seem like manna-from-heaven to the suits that run Forbes.

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RE: Forbes magazine thinks design is a "snooty bus... - 2/3/2009 11:10:43 AM   
Jeope


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrsbrak2

Still, I can't stop thinking about what iStock did to photographers.


That in itself makes me snigger, Brak. Not your post mind you, but in the story's own comments someone literally makes the same statement – "look what iStock did to photographers" (I'm paraphrasing) – but means it as a positive thing.

There is definitely education to be had here, and masses unwilling to be part of it.

And who designs Forbes? Who builds and maintains their website? Who handles their advertising? Must be an entire legion of Tennesseean grannies.

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